The New Padawan- Lady Red

i received an email from a 20 yo college student. her dliema- she wants to lose her virginity, but DOES NOT want to jump on the carousel. i spoke with this young lady for a while on the phone and i can tell you……she’s a good egg. i’d TOTALLY date this woman. she’s a hard 7- redhead, VERY CUTE. after talking to her, my advice was to have a couple of drinks and do the deed with a friend. i’m asking TiaAtholStingrayJacquie, and Aoefe to chime in.
of course you reader’s are also welcome to offer advice. but i wish to reiterate my policy, any bashing of this girl will be put into moderation. so let me introduce…….Lady Red.
________________________________________________________________________
“I recently did a summer study abroad with some other university students from my school.
It was an awesome experience and we all got to be pretty close.  I got to be really good friends with one of the
guys on the trip.  From the start he tried to get physically close to me (breaking the touch barrier, etc.).
This guy is very involved in partying – at school he’s in a top fraternity, is always drinking, and I’m assuming
he gets a lot of hot girls (both from his personality and by virtue of being in a top frat) – even though he’s not the
best looking guy in the world.
We spent tons of one-on-one time together – getting food, helping him buy souvenirs for friends and family,
hanging out on the beach, dancing at salsa classes,etc.  It was very obvious that he preferred hanging out with
me than with any other group member (guys and girls).
Though this trip was pretty long and we got to be really close, nothing happened between us on the trip. Fast-forward
to the start of this semester, we met up at a couple of parties and hung out a lot.  Eventually we hooked up at one of his
frat parties (not sex) – let me just say that I don’t hook up a lot, and I’ve only done more than making out
with one other guy – he knew all of this already.
At this point, I’m really excited about what happened and I’m hoping for a repeat the next time I see him.  I meet him again
a few days later at his frat and he’s super distant.  I don’t know what happened!  All of a sudden he was
clearly completely uninterested and definitely didn’t want to pick up where we left off.  He hardly touched me (in a friendly way) at all, and we didn’t do anything – not even a kiss!  I guess I’m just wondering why he’s so uninterested after months of seeming
interested in me and getting really close to me.”
_________________________________________________________________________________
again….any attacks against this girl will be nuked. GOT IT. she’s a decent girl, and one worthy of the Sphere wisdom. she’s happily taken the red pill.

83 Comments on “The New Padawan- Lady Red”

  1. Vicomte says:

    What does Red want, exactly?

    • dannyfrom504 says:

      To lose her virginity, but avoid the carousel. She wants to drop her V card in a LTR, but that’s a difficult situation considering where she lives.

      Sent from my iPhone

      • BC says:

        She wants to drop her V card in a LTR

        Then why is she pining over being suddenly ignored by a confirmed frat-boy player?

        My advice? Given the connection between sex and bonding (and reduced ability to bond as the number of prior sex partners increases), hold off on dropping the V card until she is truly sure what she wants. Because right now it sounds like she is hamsterbating.

      • Vicomte says:

        What’s confusing me is that she’s thinking about this like a guy. Virginity in cute girls is a valuable commodity. You’re making it sound like she wants to ‘get it over with’, which is an attitude usually reserved for carousel-devotees. Every girl says ‘I would never want THAT’ until, suddenly, they do.

        I suppose I should be asking ‘What’s her motivation?’ LTR for keeps? Kicks? Social immunity?

        Either way, drunken frat bro doesn’t seem like a prudent investment. Unless he’s the goal, naturally.

        Is she aware that a woman with her sexual history and looks is very desirable?

      • 3rd Millenium Men says:

        You haven explained WHY she wants to drop it. Is she ashamed? Thinks it makes her a nerd? Uncool? I dont get why she’d want to ‘drop’ one of the most valuable possessions she has and just throw that away. Virginity is in such high demand these days. Save yourself for a great man. Because he’ll be there and want you. Your worth to him will drop when you start sleeping with other people.

  2. Athor Pel says:

    If she ever wants to get married to a quality guy she won’t sleep with anyone until she gets married. From where she is now, her market value only goes down. She is talking about willfully reducing it in large chunks. It sounds like she is listening to “friends” that don’t really have her best interests at heart.

    One of the things that gets talked about a great deal in the manosphere is the need for a man to build himself into a quality person worthy of respect. If she loses her virginity she will be willfully destroying a major part of what a man sees as what makes her worth marrying rather than just using her for sex.

    Also if she wants to stay married once she does marry she should make sure the guy she marries is the first one she sleeps with. Women emotionally bond with the men they have sex with, and none more strongly than the first one. The bond gets weaker the more men they sleep with until it is gone forever.

    If she has sex with a guy that she has no intention of marrying then she is damaging herself and defrauding the guy if he wants to marry her. That’s not exactly a good start to life.

    • dannyfrom504 says:

      No.

      She’s well aware of the carousel, and that’s not what she want . BUT she does want to cash in her V card.

      Cut her some slack, I talk to her, you don’t. She’s a decent girl.

      • Vicomte says:

        There’s missing information here, Danny.

        You’re saying some seemingly contradictory things. She doesn’t want to play Cock Hopscotch, but she wants to lose her virginity why? To what end?

        If it’s because she just wants to get laid, that’s one thing. If she wants a genuine LTR, and sex in a context of that, that’s another.

        We can’t offer counsel if we don’t understand what she wants. Long term and short term.

      • Vicomte says:

        So she wants to have sex, but doesn’t want to be a slut.

        Tell her that one about cake and eating it.

        Next.

        • dannyfrom504 says:

          Yeah. She’s human. She has a libido, but has no plans on sleeping with every guy that crosses her path.

          Did you talk to this girl for almost on hour on the phone? Well….I did. I know where she’s coming from and she’s a decent girl.

          • 3rd Millenium Men says:

            Danny, she sounds like a VERY decent girl. And I’d hope we’d all be wanting to encourage her to STAY that way.

    • dannyfrom504 says:

      Dude, she’s 20. Get real. She’s a decent girl: she’s down for sex but she isn’t down to fuck a bunch of random dudes. Is that so bad ?

      Sent from my iPhone

      • LongLostFriend says:

        Dude, I don’t see anyone attacking her. They are just giving her the facts. You are bending over backwards to white-knight her for some reason, though.

        Marriage-minded “greater betas” (or whatever you want to call those guys whom women are actually are attracted to and are marriage-friendly themselves) value virginity. If she wants to have sex that badly, she should do the hard work of finding herself a good man to marry before giving it up.

        That is the best advice for a virginal female who wants to maintain the highest marriage market value possible.

      • dannyfrom504 says:

        LLF-
        “You are bending over backwards to white-knight her for some reason, though.”

        heheheh. ok.

        there are details to her story you guys DON’T know. she wrote the post. she shared what she was comfortable placing on a blog. i know that WHOLE STORY.

        considering i’ve been bogging for over a year, i KNEW the kind of reactions her story would bring about. i appreciate honesty, but also ask for respect.

        is THAT white-knighting?

      • “there are details to her story you guys DON’T know. she wrote the post. she shared what she was comfortable placing on a blog. i know that WHOLE STORY.”

        There is NOTHING I can see that would change the fact she shouldn’t lose her virginity for the sake of it.

    • 3rd Millenium Men says:

      Hear hear.

  3. Songirl says:

    Don’t do it.

  4. Spacetraveller says:

    Don’t lose your virginity until you are with the man you want to marry, or have already married.

  5. Red says:

    Thanks for the feedback guys – good to hear what everyone has to say

    • Marellus says:

      … that frat-guy is gaming you. He’s using push-pull, and you’re falling for it. Next he’ll use screening to get you into bed :

      I want this to be special. And I want you to know this will be for keeps.

  6. Vicomte says:

    Danny, are you being purposefully obtuse on this one?

    I don’t get it. Girl wants to fuck. She can, easily.

    She doesn’t want to fuck around too much. She doesn’t have to. Though, again, that’s what they all say at first.

    She wanted to date/bang frat guy. Naturally, he’s not interested in a relationship with a virginal girl right now.

    Obviously, people are going to tell her that tossing away her greatest SMV asset is a bad idea if she doesn’t want casual sex and casual sex only.

    Is the question how to get laid without becoming a slut? This makes my brain hurt.

    • dannyfrom504 says:

      Dude, she wants to have sex. But she doesn’t want to ride the carousel. Most girls do want sex, but are also aware of the reputation they might get

      Sent from my iPhone

      • Vicomte says:

        I give.

        You’re not making sense, brother.

      • M3 says:

        She can look for a tasty lo cal sorbet popsicle that she knows she can enjoy everyday or she can go sample some high sugar/fat haagendas, baskin robins flavor ice creams cups, cones, drumsticks, cremesickles.

        One path will make you fat.

        It’s all about proper screening, and that means taking time to read the god damn nutritional information on the back of the package.

        I gonna voice what others have said. Not sure what is being asked of here? You asked a question and many have answered, none with harsh redpill manosphere overtones. We gave advice. Is this not what was asked?

        Hopefully you weren’t just expecting all of us to jump into validating quickly jumping onto a dick to remove the blight of ‘virginity’ from her still impressive resume just for the fulfilling sense of having some fun. Yes, she’s a girl and wants to have sex because it’s fun and feels good. I get it. Yes, i want to eat a dumptruck worth of Lay’s Sour Creme & Onion potato chips in one sitting because it’s tasty and feels good. Doing the easy thing is not necessarily the wise thing.

        Like Susan said.. why does she want to nuke her V card? Is it a source of shame for her or is she just too enthralled at the idea of having sex and wanting to experience it?

        If she chooses poorly, that first experience can never be redone.

  7. Jacquie says:

    I would have to agree with the advice to not do it. Once you do, you can’t go back. But if she waits, it speaks volumes about her character and patience, a responsible woman with self respect; aren’t these things that a man wants in his wife and the mother of his children? I’m looking at it like that. Is she getting flak from others around her because she hasn’t lost it yet? If she is then I can only say that if it’s others who have lost their V card, they may very well be jealous that she still has something they can never get back. She has something of high value to give to a man she will one day have deep feelings for. And one of the things I read most in these parts of the net is that on just about every list that a man posts about what he would want in a future wife/mother of his children is that she is a virgin. Why would this beautiful young woman with so much going for her want to throw away something so valuable and that it might one day be a deal breaker in the eyes of someone would want to spend the rest of her life with?

  8. deti says:

    “To lose her virginity, but avoid the carousel. She wants to drop her V card in a LTR, but that’s a difficult situation considering where she lives.”

    Hmmmmm. Red, are you a circus performer? Because you sure seem to like walking tightropes.

    Listen to Danny, you must. Soon you will have a Jedi lover of high character and good lovin’ in your bed.

    This is going to be a long comment. Please read it through all the way to the end.

    What you ask is a difficult thing. It’s a tall order even for the most well-intentioned of women. Unfortunately, good intentions don’t often count for much in this SMP, I’m afraid.

    I have to concur with the advice above, Don’t give up your V-card until you get married. I’ve heard it so many times from so many women — I didn’t mean to rack up a high N; I never meant for it to turn out that way; I didn’t want so many breakups; men will fuck me but won’t even take me out for a nice evening, much less marry me; I’m not attracted to the men who are willing to marry me; they are nice guys but I’m not attracted to them and can’t love them; I’m 30 and still not married; etc.

    If you are not married to your first, you will probably break up with him; and it will hurt. A lot. For a long time. You’re a pretty girl and you’ll probably get married someday (most girls do). You’ll have to face your husband someday and honestly give him your N. You won’t be able to fudge or evade or get defensive or lie. You’ll have to be honest. You will not want to be embarrassed, ashamed, guilty, regretful, or humiliated when you do this.

    All that said, if you’re still determined to drop your V-card in an LTR, you will have to focus on the quality of the man. You don’t want a pump & dump and you don’t want a player. Strategy:

    1. First order of business is to forget Frat Boy. He’s a first class fastball hit it & quit it man.

    2. Look for men of high character. Good students, conscientious men, but with confidence. Friendly, kind, but with a bit of an edge. Someone who isn’t “nice”, but is kind. You will meet them in class, in extracurriculars, at your job, through your friends.

    3. Don’t discount a guy because he’s not hot. You will have to look deeper; into his mind and heart. You’ll have to spend some time getting to know him.

    4. When you are interested, you will have to make it very, very clear to him that you are. Touch him lightly. Laugh at his jokes. Don’t tease him or neg him. Make it easy for him to get to know you.

    5. Do not sleep with any man to “get it over with”. Do not sleep with any man unless you:

    a. Are dating exclusively
    b. Are so hot to sex him the sexual tension is unbearable;
    c. Are in love with him; and
    d. Could see yourself married to him.

    6. Do not make the decision to sleep with any man based on feelings – either his or yours. Don’t follow the tingle. Think. THINK. Keep a clear head.

    7. Men to avoid: The obvious players. The frat boys. The athletes. Men who are a bit more forward. Cocky, overconfident, loveable assholes. (Men like Danny, IOW.) They have their pick of the student body, first dibs on the hottest women. If you are looking for an LTR, your competition are the hot sluts who regularly service these men. You’re no match for them, because you expect too much from your first time and because it’s just easier to get with a slut.

    8. USE CONDOMS. Every time. All the time. I don’t have to tell you why.

    9. Think long term. Not tomorrow, not next week, not next semester. This is an LTR with marriage as a possibility. Don’t sleep with any man whom you can’t see yourself living with, working with, suffering with and laughing with until one of you is dead. If you cannot see yourself standing at an altar saying “I do” to this man, do not sleep with him.

    There are very great risks involved:

    1. For many reasons too numerous to mention here, if you’re not already married to the man you sex first, you probably won’t marry him. For whatever reason, it probably won’t work out long term. Either you’ll break up with him or he with you. And one of you will get hurt. A lot. Chances are the one who gets hurt will be you.

    2. You could get pregnant. You’re at peak fertility. Condoms and BC pills fail. It’s rare but it happens. Be prepared to deal with that.

    3. You could get an STD. Again, condoms aren’t foolproof.

    4. Nothing changes a woman like losing her virginity. You will remember this experience and this man for the rest of your life. At any time you’ll be able to recall it in vivid detail. The sights, sensations, smells — you’ll remember it all, forever. This is true regardless of who you marry, the number of subsequent men you have sex with, or any other life experience you have. Good or bad, mind-blowing or “meh”, this experience will be branded on your heart and it will never, ever go away.

    5. You will never, ever forget this man. The man who takes your virginity will always, ALWAYS have a special place in your heart. It will be a place your husband will never have and will never occupy because it will always belong to your first. You will always be able to picture him in your mind’s eye. There will be times you will want to forget him but you won’t be able to. He will at times take a place ahead of other men in your life, including your husband. You will have to overcome it somehow so as to give your husband your best and not leftovers.

  9. deti says:

    BTW, Red, I think this is why Frat Boy is cold-shouldering you:

    On the summer study abroad, you were getting close to Frat Boy. You really liked him. You and he hooked up at the parties with a little more than kissing. I’d be willing to bet he was pushing hard for P in V sex at that hookup, and you resisted. When you did that, Frat Boy figured out you would be too much work or too hard a target.

    Red: Another thing is this. (DON’T ANSWER THIS QUESTION ON THIS BOARD. Answer it to yourself.)

    Are you really a virgin? Ever done anything ending with the suffix “-job”? Handjob, blowjob, titjob, any other -job? If you have, you’re not a true virgin. You’re a P in V virgin.

  10. deti says:

    Another thing to remember, young Red, is this.

    You will bond hard to the man you have sex with first, whoever that is. That bond will not be easily broken. This is why the breakup you have with him will hurt so much. And chances are, you will break up with him, and it will hurt a lot.

  11. Athor Pel says:

    Danny, with your background, you should understand curses and blessings, specially curses. If she sleeps with a guy that isn’t her husband then she is cursing herself. It is that simple. Sin is sin whether we want it to be or not and it brings with it a spiritual cost that rarely gets counted in our modern world because we’ve become so fixated with the material world that we are blind to the spiritual.

    Every sin carries a spiritual cost, it opens a doorway for an influence that does not have our best interests at heart.

  12. ASF says:

    I don’t think she will be permanently damaged just b/c she sleeps with a guy who she does not end up marrying.

    I bet Red wants to lose it with some dude who will become her serious bf that she might, but not necessarily, marry. Obviously frat guy is not the one for her.

    Girls like her face the opposite dilemma of guys: too many choices and its probably hard to filter.

    My suggestion for her: start doing some social activity where she can observe potential candidates over a long term. It would beat finding a guy in a bar/club.

  13. deti says:

    Another very great risk you will run, Red, is this:

    You could vet the man carefully. He is kind and confident, good looking, has a lot going for him. He’s patient and moves on his timetable and yours. You’re exclusive. The sexual tension is hot. You could see yourself marrying him.

    You have sex with him.

    And then one of two things happens:

    1. The sex is terrible.
    2. He pumps and dumps you.

    Yep. You could go through all this, and end up having called it wrong. You’re not compatible.

    Or even worse, you go through all of this, you called it wrong. Very wrong.

    You lose because he got a new notch, and that’s all he wanted. In this SMP, if it doesn’t happen to you, I bet it’s happened to one of your GFs. This is the world we live in now.

  14. M3 says:

    Lose it in an LTR or a one night stand? That’s turning into a fine hair.

    Who was it that called LTR’s marriage lite?

    Honestly, i hate the term LTR. It’s really just another way of saying “relationship that lasts 2 or more days that will inevitably end”

    I agree with all the other comments. If she gives it up just for ‘fun’ or to follow the herd (i agree with Jaquie, it brings her down to the herds level).

    She needs to be actively ‘SCREENING’ and ‘FILTERING’ for the guy she hopes would provide a legitimate first AND last in the pairbond search. And trust me, the quality guy at the end of that search will RESPECT her for having maintained her virginity (hell i would, even if only p in v). We can’t be naive and assume that it would for sure end up ‘happily ever after’ and that it will last a lifetime.. BUT if she approaches screening every guy for lifetime compatibility rather than in the moment compatibility, she’ll do much better. This begins with treating every start of a relationship as the one that ends with ’till death do you part’ rather than ‘itll be fun for a couple months/years and then ill settle down’.

    And here’s my iron clad maxim for women. The more partners you’ve had does not equal sexuality, prowess or ability in bed. (Men needs lots of practice to build up technique and stamina because this is a criteria of female mate selection, women just need to look pretty and RESPOND, you don’t need sexual gymnastics to please a guy, and you really shouldn’t listen to COSMO tips either)

    You can learn everything you need about sex from one partner, one who’s open minded, honest, trustworthy. One partner who over time learns every little detail about where to touch you and how your body responds, willing to experiment in a safe and trusting environment. One who will not jackhammer you and tell you to pick up your clothes and go home.

    Are we seeing the big picture here?

    She’s 20, she’s young, she’s horny and wants to get her rocks off. I get that. But she’s also going to probably get REALLY emotional and connect with the first guy who puts it in her. Is she willing to risk getting p&d and feeling like used shit if she gets done in by a player, and know she gave away her most precious resource to a jackass and not someone who cares about her?

    She should look for someone who has marriage possibility. It may or may not get that far, but that should be her guiding factor and who she ends up sleeping with, and not just the race to lose it like so many of her brainwashed generation that hold up losing it at 13 or 14 as a badge of honor.

  15. stormy says:

    That’s weird, I’ve never had something like with frat boy happen with me. Usually things end on my terms. He might have been uncomfortable that you’re a virgin, or was obviously hoping you would sleep with him, and perceived it as a sort of rejection that you didn’t. Obviously, not someone you want to lose your v card to. So whatever. Don’t let it bother you. And seriously, cut a lot of the frat bros out of your life. If not all. They tend to suck as people.

    I had sex the first time with someone who has a virgin. I dumped him not long afterward. The breakup didn’t really hurt (for me) though I’m a horrible person and dragged him along for a while (he asked me if twenty years from now if we were both single, if i’d settle for him. I told him we’d both be happily married by then and to stop it). In a situation like this, you could be like him or you could be like me. Or you could both get married. There’s a lovely woman in the sphere (Olive, I believe) who lost her virginity to her boyfriend who was also a virgin and they’ve been together a long time. The reality is that things can go either way for people.

    Having premarital sex with people who care about me hasn’t killed me, though I admit that I did engage it in a time I turned away from God because I felt as though He turned away from me. I was raped my first semester of college and before then was a Christian waiting until marriage. It really screwed with my head and screwed with my attitudes in regards to sex and my faith. That said, I don’t know the best advice I could give you. Engaging in sex now isn’t going to result in you never getting married. I think your choices to engage in sex with someone should be EXTREMELY personal. As you can see, each person’s advice to you on this comment has been colored with their experiences, their opinion, and their biases. Some people are Christians. Deti recently found out his wife has a high N and it devastated him. These sorts of things are going to affect what people tell you.

    Take into account everything people have said, and think. Don’t do something because someone told you to or told you not to. If your peers want you to have sex, and you don’t, fuck them. If you want to have sex and feel ready, then breathe, think about it a bit, make sure you’re ready, and why not? But really make sure you’re ready, and again, I emphasize, don’t let your peers pressure you. Or the media. Or anyone. This decision is your own, you will live with it.

    And being married doesn’t guarantee you’ll be free of pain. My mother lost her virginity to her first husband, a man who was a liar and a cheater. She went into a depression after their divorce that lasted years. The depression wasn’t necessarily because he was her first…it’s because he did not uphold his side of the bargain in marriage. People can hurt you no matter what.

    But not doing things because you want to avoid the potential hurt is one way to live life, but not really the ideal. You’ll be cutting yourself short of a potentially good experience, with someone who could be amazing. It reminds me of a friend telling me once,”For a while I had a hard time getting attached to people, because then I’d realize that eventually they’d die.” A bit morbid, but it’s the reality that even people we love, who don’t do anything to hurt us, could end up hurting us through leaving this earth. The reality behind love is that there’s a risk of getting hurt and there’s a risk of hurting someone (I always feel like i’m doing the latter….).

    So I’m not really telling you to do one thing or the other, but just to think about your decision a lot.

  16. Jack Schitz says:

    I was in this situation once (I was the guy) and my suggestion is that she try her best to find a guy who is ambitious, sincere but not needy and who she is really attracted to. (FYI, When I was a 1L at a top 3 law school and the girl was a really hot asian girl who had just started a masters program and who had lived at home during college and so…). She should also tell the guy before hand. Not necessarily, “FYI, I’m a virgin”, but something along the lines of “this is new to me so you need to be careful with me…” In my case I knew full well what I was getting into and was not willing to do a “pump and dump” with this girl because I knew she was giving me something special. If she gets the feeling that the guy is heading in that direction she should walk away.

    FWIW, my relationship lasted 3+ years and was one of the best I have ever had. We probably would have gotten married if we hadn’t had to do the LDR relationship thing because she did her Ph.D. in a different city and I went on to get my MBA at another school as well. In retrospect, I probably should have married her….

    Let me know if you have questions.

    Cheers

    • Jack Schitz says:

      Just a couple of additional thoughts:

      1. Ambitious guys are going to be more likely to NOT screw this girl over because they care about their reputations (particularly in closed environments like schools) and they are likely to be motivated and thus more attractive to her. She should avoid the “man-whores” at all costs as these guys’ reputations are actually enhanced by screwing a girl like this over and they are unlikely to be converted into monogamy.

      2. She should also avoid guys who have not dated around a bit post high school. Dating a virgin is something that most guys with some experience know is a major positive and, as long as they like the girl, they will try to keep the relationship going as long as possible. The best description that I have every seen on this is here (scroll down to “0 to 2 Partners: Trusting / Naive”):

      http://www.girlschase.com/content/how-many-partners-has-your-girlfriend-had-find-out-here

      I mean seriously, what guy wouldn’t want this….

      3. Given her age she might want to date up in age. So if she is going to try to stay in the academic environment she might want to start going to grad school, law school, medical school, business school type functions. The good thing about these is that she will probably blow away a vast majority of the other women there as far as looks and she just might get lucky and find herself in a marriage situation with a lifetime count of 1.

    • Jack Schitz says:

      Two more notes:

      1. The reason she should tell the guy before hand is so that he knows what he’s getting into. I’ve also been in the situation where I didn’t know that the girl was 1st timer until she was doing the “hold my head next to hers so I can’t see her in pain” thing. Had I known before hand, I would have NOT slept with this girl because I really had no intention of making her my GF. I think most guys who are NOT psychopathic man whores will probably respond the same way and let the girl know that she should look elsewhere so its probably a good filtering device combined with a little due-diligence on her part to screen out the man whores.

      2. From what my ex GF has told me it was not getting rid of the “V” designation that was the good part of our relationship (from the sexual point of view), it was the exploration in a safe environment after the first night. Accordingly, I would suggest to your friend that she be really looking for relationship potential in the guy. On the other hand she will have to move forward pretty quickly as guys that may be perfectly willing to be the “one” may get cold feet if they sense that your friend is going to have significant sexual hang ups post coming up the learning curve.

      • Jack Schitz says:

        BTW, “move forward pretty quickly” means she should probably tell this guy on the 2nd date and see what his reaction is and if he come back for more (i.e. 3rd date+) with an attitude that seems “protective” she shouldn’t make him wait too much longer. In other words she should probably not make what she considers to be the “right guy” wait till date 10, because even the most motivated guy is going to move on.

      • Marellus says:

        Your comments make for interesting reading, Mr Schitz.

  17. OffTheCuff says:

    I agree with ASF and M3.

    Unless this girl is religious, the “save yourself for your husband” comments from the conservative Christian wing aren’t going to be helpful, and probably will make things worse. My advice, assuming she isn’t:

    1. Lose this particular guy, and become aware of her attraction triggers for status.
    2. Find a boyfriend, as above. He doesn’t have to be man you marry — but she should avoid the types that she damn well knows “aren’t the marrying type” themselves (see #1), or she would never marry see #1.
    3. Emotionally escalate, like Hope would say, and have sex with when she is comfortable.

  18. 3rd Millenium Men says:

    Conservative Christian wing… Really? You don’t think there are ANY good reasons for this girl remaining a virgin other than religious reasons? Bizarre comment to make, trying to turn solid advice proved over thousands of years into almost a smear with people you label in a certain group. Read the summation of what the Manosphere has to say on virginity here: http://3rdmilleniummen.wordpress.com/2012/08/26/manosphere-virginity

    Plenty of them aren’t ‘conservative Christians’.

    • Jacquie says:

      3rd Millenium Men,

      Thank you for the link to your post, it was very well put together and what I was trying to say in my comment.
      Reading the post also made me think about a couple of other things. First, I have to wonder what made her keep her V card until now; is it that she considered it of value? And if so, why the change?
      Secondly, and I’m not sure this is the case with Lady Red, but going back to what I said earlier about feeling pressure by others to give it up; being pushed by the words of those around us on one thing will often lead to following what others will say on future matters? How many women had their view of their own husbands influenced by what other women said, and then followed the words of others into divorce? I believe most men are going to be drawn to a women who holds her ground much more so than one who follows the herd. If none of this pertains to you Lady Red, then disregard. And maybe I’m not explaining it quite right, but I just wanted to throw out something more to think about.

  19. The Navy Corpsman says:

    I’d tell her to wait for someone she loves and loves her back.

    The Navy Corpsman

  20. Susan Walsh says:

    I have a question for Red. Why do you want to lose your virginity? It doesn’t make sense to me to have that as a goal, unless you perceive that your virginity is turning guys off. That’s why most girls say they want to “get it over with.” I’m also not clear on how the experience with the frat star plays into this wish. Do you suspect that he lost interest because you don’t have much sexual experience? If so, then I can’t imagine a worse reason for giving it up, frankly.

    His decision to ignore you when you him again was intended as a clear message that there will be no Round 2. He is saying that you should expect nothing from him. In fact, now that the hookup has occurred, the friendship is over. I’m sorry for you – I know that totally sucks, and I cannot tell you how often I hear this exact same story. You got emotionally invested, he knows it, and he’s out. He perceives that his status will be higher if he hooks up with numerous people, which is undoubtedly true in his frat.

    FWIW, I know some girls who did this when they got to college, and every one regrets it.

  21. Susan Walsh says:

    For many reasons too numerous to mention here, if you’re not already married to the man you sex first, you probably won’t marry him. For whatever reason, it probably won’t work out long term. Either you’ll break up with him or he with you. And one of you will get hurt. A lot.

    What is the basis for this claim? 95% of Americans have premarital sex, and a full 85% of the population approves it.

    “The vast majority of Americans have sex before marriage, including those who abstained from sex during their teenage years, according to “Trends in Premarital Sex in the United States, 1954–2003,” by Lawrence B. Finer, published in the January/February 2007 issue of Public Health Reports. Further, contrary to the public perception that premarital sex is much more common now than in the past, the study shows that even among women who were born in the 1940s, nearly nine in 10 had sex before marriage.

    The new study uses data from several rounds of the federal National Survey of Family Growth to examine sexual behavior before marriage, and how it has changed over time. According to the analysis, by age 44, 99% of respondents had had sex, and 95% had done so before marriage.”

    http://www.guttmacher.org/media/nr/2006/12/19/index.html

    Nothing changes a woman like losing her virginity. You will remember this experience and this man for the rest of your life. At any time you’ll be able to recall it in vivid detail. The sights, sensations, smells — you’ll remember it all, forever. This is true regardless of who you marry, the number of subsequent men you have sex with, or any other life experience you have. Good or bad, mind-blowing or “meh”, this experience will be branded on your heart and it will never, ever go away.

    More misinformation. This is completely untrue. Especially today, when most college sex occurs while the parties are drunk.

    You will bond hard to the man you have sex with first, whoever that is…You will never, ever forget this man. The man who takes your virginity will always, ALWAYS have a special place in your heart. It will be a place your husband will never have and will never occupy because it will always belong to your first. You will always be able to picture him in your mind’s eye. There will be times you will want to forget him but you won’t be able to. He will at times take a place ahead of other men in your life, including your husband. You will have to overcome it somehow so as to give your husband your best and not leftovers.

    Seriously, Red, ignore all of this, it’s completely unfounded.

    Now back to planet Earth:

    Save sex for a man you are seeing exclusively and care about very much, and who you are sure returns your feelings. If you follow that one guideline, you’ll be fine.

    • Marellus says:

      Suzan, what is the divorce rate on the 5% that don’t have premarital sex ?

      • dannyfrom504 says:

        why did you refer to her as Suzan? play nice. i feel like your comment was swipe at her. she’s a friend. discuss, but be cool.

        cool.

      • Marellus says:

        Mrs Walsh.

        Consider this abstract from the Journal of Marriage and Family Vol.53 No. 4 of Nov. 1991 :

        This article examines the relationship between premarital sexual activity and the long-term risk of divorce among U.S. women married between 1965 and 1985.

        Simple cross-tabulations from the 1988 National Survey of Family Growth indicate that women who were sexually active prior to marriage faced a considerably higher risk of marital disruption than women were were virgin brides.

        A bivariate probit model is employed to examine three possible explanations for this positive relationship: (a) a direct causal effect, (b) an indirect effect through intervening “high risk” behaviors (such as having a premarital birth or marrying at a young age), and (c) a selectivity effect representing prior differences between virgins and nonvirgins (such as family background or attitudes and values).

        After a variety of observable characteristics are controlled, nonvirgins still face a much higher risk of divorce than virgins.

        Since this blog’s host is adamant that this writer must address you formally, this writer submits this in respectful rebuttal.

        This writer is also of the opinion that while phenomenology has much to discredit itself, one cannot help but notice the apparent disparity between how life is actually lived as opposed how life is supposed to be lived.

        As such it would be the height of folly to make a study of (and advocate) noble suppositions, when the genuine is less sanguine.

        The choice is between how man should be, and what man really is.

        And the choice then hinges between changing man, or accommodating him.

        And such a choice is by its very nature, an unpleasant one.

        Danny

        Would you tell a 20-year old boy to punch his V-Card ?

        Yes, you would.

        Can you guarantee that he will not turn out like Zach on HUS ?

        No.

        Have you read HUS lately ?

        No, (for then you would have seen that Mrs. Walsh didn’t object to me calling her by her first name.)

        And what would happen if Miss Red met someone like Zach then ?

        A broken heart, and later a failed marriage methinks.

        That is a swipe at you.

        Deal with it.

      • Susan Walsh says:

        I have no idea, Marellus. But there are many, many couples who do not divorce in the 95%.

      • Stingray says:

        Marellus,

        Danny only meant how you spelled her name, Suzan. She spells it Susan. Not that you should direct your comments in a formal manner. That’s all.

      • Susan Walsh says:

        I understand your point. Waiting for marriage is admirable, it’s a choice I respect. But I’m a realist. Today women spend an average of 17 years between the onset of menses and marriage. That’s unprecedented in history, and I do not find it reasonable to expect that women in their peak fertility years will avoid sex even in LTRs. I have no problem with women marrying earlier, but as long as they don’t, they’re going to have premarital sex.

        Also, the rise in anal sex, which has been dramatic, is 50% attributable to people who have pledged abstinence. (ABC News) And plenty of couples are doing “everything but.” Personally, I don’t believe that P in V is a magical bonding experience. I do think it’s important that women have sex in the context of emotional intimacy, and I include all forms of sex in that description.

        It’s fine to call me Susan (or even Suzan) or Tia. Don’t call me Mrs. Walsh!

      • Marellus says:

        I see I overreacted then. My apologies to you Susan, and to you Danny.

  22. Stingray says:

    Lady Red,

    I’m going to bounce off of a few of the other comments here and repeat some of it (because it truly is that important).

    1. Please read what everyone is saying about losing your virginity. It may not seem like it now, but it truly IS a big deal. You may not think it is THAT big of a deal and I understand why. But somewhere, deep down you know it is. You’ve waited this long. Ask yourself why? Your pretty. It’s not because you can’t pull guys. It’s more than that. Think very long and very hard on this, please. You. Can’t. EVER. Go. Back. EVER. My advice is to wait. Wait for the guy you honestly think you can’t live without and the guy who feels the same about you.

    2. Read Deti’s comment. Now . . . . read it again, and again. I understand where your coming from and thank God you are putting some thought into this. You are looking to walk a tightrope and again, I understand why. You want a quality guy, but a lot of quality guys want sex and you know they will go elsewhere for it. You also want to protect yourself from a player. Some will play you through and through until you are hooked and give it up for them. Others will be straight up honest. You will never know the difference. Your dignity (not too mention your heart and your future husband) will thank you if you vet these guys and you vet them hard.

    Some advice on vetting:

    As Deti said, go for men of high character. But you absolutely MUST be incredibly attracted to him. So much so that it almost hurts. Learn to tell the difference between what attracts you and what are qualities for a lasting LTR/marriage because these are two very different things. Several men will have wonderful qualities as LTR and husband material but they won’t make your heart skip several beats every time you see them. MOVE ON. If your looking for a LTR/husband he MUST be someone you can respect and respect down to your bones. It is from this respect that the love will come. Without it, the love will fade. In short, extremely high attraction, respect to your bones, and a good man with integrity. Tough, tough call, I know. But a man like this will be easier to find if you keep your virginity.

    3. Looking long term is crucial. The decisions that don’t seem like they are that big of a deal today end up being the ones that define your whole life 10-15 years down the road. They are not cavalier things (as I suspect many of your friends view them to be?). Giving up your virginity, settling for a good man but one who doesn’t blow up your skirt/whom you don’t respect, following your girl friends down the road of control and empowerment, these things will change your life in ways that you can’t see right now and will cause repercussions that you can never change. DO NOT go for the quick attention fix. This is what Deti meant when he said you can’t compete with the hot girls. You’re not playing the same game. They may get all the attention now, but it will burn out fast and it will burn out hard. Play the long game. There is no need for that high rush of attention no matter how good it feels. Find a man that will give you all the attention you will ever need for the rest of your life. You do not want to be 40 year old cat lady or one who settled for a man she couldn’t love because she burned herself out at 22.

    4. Don’t let your girlfriends influence you here. This is your choice to make. I wouldn’t even talk to them about it. Their influence is likely much stronger than you realize.

    I know there has got to be more, but that’s what I have for you now. Post questions, thoughts, anything. Most importantly, if nothing else, let it sink in that this is a bigger decision than you probably realize right now.

  23. Justsayin says:

    Red: Your V is valuable. Hang onto it and give it to someone you care about and who cares about you. You only get one 1st time. Don’t throw it away just because you want to your V card played or because your horny. Guys place high social value on a virgin. Don’t fall prey to thinking that your virginity is a hindrance. It’s a huge asset!!!!

  24. deti says:

    deti “For many reasons too numerous to mention here, if you’re not already married to the man you sex first, you probably won’t marry him. For whatever reason, it probably won’t work out long term. Either you’ll break up with him or he with you. And one of you will get hurt. A lot.

    Susan Walsh: “What is the basis for this claim? 95% of Americans have premarital sex, and a full 85% of the population approves it.”

    Susan, all I’m saying is that if Red decides to have premarital sex, she probably won’t marry the first man she has sex with. I agree with these statistics and that they say what they say, but they’re totally irrelevant to my point.

    SW: “More misinformation. This is completely untrue. Especially today, when most college sex occurs while the parties are drunk.”

    Well, I doubt Red will want her first time to happen while intoxicated.

  25. just visiting says:

    Oh boy. I remember being in Red’s shoes. To make it worse, a lot of rather attractive fellows will pass you over because of it. And the girls who are not virgin’s seem to be getting all of the attention. Throw in a culture that makes you feel like virginity makes you a freak and the chattering of female friends, and the worry that lack of skill will put you at a disadvantage.

    My advice. Save it for marriage. But, if she is determined, wait and look around. Don’t just toss it. Take the time to fall in love, and then be prepared to hurt when that relationship is over. Of all of the women that I’ve known over the years, most lost their virginity the way that Red wants to. Most of them didn’t want the carousel. But it’s a slippery slope when you start off casually with sex. You are training your mind and limbic system to reject bonding.

  26. Senior Beta says:

    Response to Susan’s debate with Deti: Susan, remember the gal who wanted to drop her V “like hot coals” to the guy she was complaining about as too beta? Everything you abhor about the hook up culture both the guys and gals on here are warning Red about. I think she has probably gotten the message.

    • Susan Walsh says:

      @Senior Beta

      Fair enough. I’ve just been seeing a lot more talk that a woman who is not a virgin at marriage will not bond to her husband, and will long for her alpha ex. It’s nonsense, and it’s a level of non-slut shaming I’ve never seen before. Talk about scare tactics! No bueno.

      • deti says:

        a woman who is not a virgin at marriage will not bond to her husband, and will long for her alpha ex.

        The second part is correct. The first part is not. At least I am not saying it. I don’t believe a virgin “will not bond to her husband”. I do believe, and I think my experience and that of others bears out, that a nonvirgin at marriage has a much more difficult time bonding to her husband. It’s not that she can’t. It’s that she will have a harder time with it.

        Remember: I’m in a minority of evil patriarchs who believe sluts can reform and marry. I just believe most don’t do the work, and there are an unfortunate few who in my opinion just can’t.

      • deti says:

        Arrggh.

        Should be “I don’t believe a NON-virgin “will not bond to her husband”.

      • Susan Walsh says:

        Deti,

        On what basis to you believe that women permanently bond to exes and are haunted by them forever?

        I ask because I have neither heard of nor observed this pattern of behavior anywhere but in the online ‘sphere.

        You speak with great authority, and I am curious to know its source.

      • deti says:

        “On what basis to you believe that women permanently bond to exes and are haunted by them forever?”

        Personal experience and from talking to others — men and women. I know I am also not the only one who has experienced this nor heard others talk about it.

        Observations — not just mine, but those of others — make sense when put into context of past history.

        So that this is clear, I will say it again. Susan, you state this as a false dichotomy. You state it as “the ‘sphere believes one alpha ruins a woman forever and renders her completely unable to bond to anyone else for the rest of her life”. I did not say that and do not subscribe to it. Perhaps there are some who believe that, but I don’t, and I’d appreciate it if you would not attempt to ascribe to me beliefs I do not hold.

        It appears to me to be more of a continuum — the more alphas, the tougher it is to bond to a husband. Certainly you’re aware of the study the Social Pathologist referred to in which premarital N was directly related to higher divorce rates?

        Ip

      • deti says:

        Susan: No need to respond. I know personal experience and anecdotes carry little weight with you, lol. We’ve had that discussion before.

      • deti says:

        Another thing: Maybe Red won’t permanently bond to her first. But bond she will; and if she has to break up with him she’ll have to break that bond too. Even when the bond is broken, she won’t forget the man, either.

        Informal poll — how many women have no memory of their first time? How many women remember nothing about it? How many women are indifferent to, or just plain don’t give a shit about, their first time having sex?

      • Marellus says:

        Informal poll — how many women have no memory of their first time? How many women remember nothing about it? How many women are indifferent to, or just plain don’t give a shit about, their first time having sex?

        Barney Frank is one.

        Sorry, couldn’t help myself.

      • Susan Walsh says:

        Personal experience and from talking to others — men and women. I know I am also not the only one who has experienced this nor heard others talk about it.
        Observations — not just mine, but those of others — make sense when put into context of past history.

        Anecdotal evidence is worth considering when it is first-hand. Surely you don’t expect someone pursuing an accurate understanding to accept “everybody says so” as evidence? If you believe that your wife is pining for an alpha ex or exes, I am sorry to hear it. Certainly I don’t rule out that some women never get over past loves – “the one that got away.” As I recall, your story of nostalgic longing for Summer was your introduction to the sphere. I don’t believe women are any more likely to suffer this malady than men are.

        Secondly, with all due respect, you spend a lot of time with unhaaaaaaapy men. I don’t think it’s reasonable to assume they are representative of men in general.

        “the ‘sphere believes one alpha ruins a woman forever and renders her completely unable to bond to anyone else for the rest of her life”. I did not say that and do not subscribe to it. Perhaps there are some who believe that, but I don’t, and I’d appreciate it if you would not attempt to ascribe to me beliefs I do not hold.

        Frankly I don’t see much daylight between my claim and yours:

        “You will never, ever forget this man. The man who takes your virginity will always, ALWAYS have a special place in your heart. It will be a place your husband will never have and will never occupy because it will always belong to your first. You will always be able to picture him in your mind’s eye. There will be times you will want to forget him but you won’t be able to. He will at times take a place ahead of other men in your life, including your husband. You will have to overcome it somehow so as to give your husband your best and not leftovers.”

        If we assume that Red’s guy is an alpha (fair assumption due to frat star status) then they’re virtually identical. If an ex can displace a husband in a woman heart or mind, she has not bonded to that husband.

        Certainly you’re aware of the study the Social Pathologist referred to in which premarital N was directly related to higher divorce rates?

        I am, but it looked at cohabiting couples only. If we assume that they are not representative of the population (which Teachman did assume), extrapolation is problematic.

        The Social Pathologist:

        “People who cohabit are known to have different values than those who do not. Teachman’s study was valuable by showing the variance in divorce risk amongst people who co-habit by the number of sexual partners they had.”

        Also:

        “The most interesting element in Chart 3 is the U‐shaped relationship between pre‐marital partner count and divorce rates. This surprised me so much that I had to chart the 2002 NSFG data alongside to be certain that the 2006/08 data wasn’t just a fluke, a sampling artifact. This chart most clearly shows that divorce rates are the lowest for those with zero pre‐marital partners. That part is unambiguous. Virgin brides are the least likely to divorce, all else equal. But why do divorce rates rise with one or two premarital partners only to reverse and drop after two or more sexual partners?”

        Secondly, the risk is present for men as well. Teachman says that a man becomes a high risk after 7 partners. Another study found that for every premarital partner a man has, his odds of being even moderately satisfied in the marriage decrease 5%. No similar effect was found for women. The link to that study is dead, but I’d be happy to email it. I discussed it with SP, who said:

        “I’m aware of it and thought about putting up a post on it, but I thought that given is medium sample size it would be dismissed by detractors as insignificant. The NSFG derived statistics usually has several thousand in their sample size and therefore far harder to dismiss.

        I actually think the findings of the study are real. There is fair large body of evidence now to suggest that high N is correlated with lower happiness overall. Whether it is cause or effect I don’t know…I wouldn’t put too much weight on these figures but male risk(N+3)=female risk (N).”

        Thirdly, SP says this about income and education:

        “One extra partner in a woman is equivalent to negating the protective benefit of greater-than-high school education in a woman, two partners equivalent to having a poverty affected marriage, ten or more partners negates any benefit of income or education with regard to marital risk…From a statistical perspective, the marital dissolution risk of a woman receiving welfare and a wealthy promiscuous educated woman is about the same.”

        Finally, since only 5% of women are virgins at marriage, this group may well have other factors that explain their lower rates of divorce. For example, they are more likely to be from very religious backgrounds, they may be more submissive, even in a bad marriage, etc.

        Overall, SP has written at least half a dozen posts on this data, and he has teased out many fascinating details. Correlation has been proved. Causation has not.

      • deti says:

        Susan:

        Thanks for your points. I’ve made mine. Red can take them for whatever they are worth and decide for herself what to do, I think.

  27. Athol Kay says:

    Red – Don’t give it up to anyone that hasn’t introduced you to his mother.

    The V card has value. Don’t waste the pretty.

  28. deti says:

    Susan:

    “Personally, I don’t believe that P in V is a magical bonding experience.”

    Then why shouldn’t Red just have sex with just any dirtbag who wants to do her? Why not Frat Boy? Why not his frat brothers?

    There must be something special about P in V sex to her or she wouldn’t be on the phone to Danny for an hour talking about it and asking for help and having misgivings about Frat Boy.

    There must be something special about P in V sex, and sex in general, or your blog, this one, and many, many others wouldn’t have people on there talking all day and all night about it, how to get it, why they can’t get it, how to keep it, when to have it, and with whom to have it.

    • Susan Walsh says:

      Then why shouldn’t Red just have sex with just any dirtbag who wants to do her? Why not Frat Boy? Why not his frat brothers?

      Sex is a physically intimate experience that for many women, feels hollow and empty without emotional intimacy to accompany it. Research on regret following hookups clearly demonstrates this. Women do experience a flood of oxytocin during sex when they orgasm, but that happens only 19% of the time in casual sex.

      Helen Fisher’s work on the brain chemistry of sex demonstrates that both sexes can fall in love as a result of having sex.

      Casual Sex Doesn’t Exist: http://bigthink.com/ideas/18575

      But the biggest risk to Red is in how terrible she’ll feel when she’s P&D’d by anyone, and the odds of that happening with frat guy are obviously very high.

      There must be something special about P in V sex to her or she wouldn’t be on the phone to Danny for an hour talking about it and asking for help and having misgivings about Frat Boy.

      Well, I asked her why she wants to swipe the V card. My guess is that this is driven by an intense attraction for this socially dominant male – it sounds like she fell for him while hanging out abroad, and she’s disappointed that the relationship has not survived the college environment.

      I think the least likely explanation is that she wants to get her rocks off. There are a few women who experience sex this way, but they generally don’t remain virgins until 20, and she is clearly expressing real feelings for someone as she is wondering about having sex. Coincidence? I think not.

      There must be something special about P in V sex, and sex in general, or your blog, this one, and many, many others wouldn’t have people on there talking all day and all night about it, how to get it, why they can’t get it, how to keep it, when to have it, and with whom to have it.

      What is the saying? Men have sex to fall in love and women fall in love to have sex? In four years of writing HUS, I have never once heard a woman ask for advice on how she can get sex. Perhaps Red would be the first, IDK. But I suspect we lack critical information here.

      There’s a famous study where researchers hired very good looking people to approach the opposite sex and ask them to have sex. 0% of women said yes. 75% of men said yes. Of the men who said no, many suggested an alternate time that would work better, lol.

      If she does want to have sex with some rando, she can accomplish that today.

      • deti says:

        “Sex is a physically intimate experience that for many women, feels hollow and empty without emotional intimacy to accompany it.”

        PRECISELY. Hence my advice to save her V-card, or wait until she’s with a man she can see herself marrying. Therefore, there IS something special and “magical” about P in V sex — or at least there should be. Red certainly seems to think so. If there weren’t, Red wouldn’t be agonizing over it with our blog host.

      • Susan Walsh says:

        @deti

        I don’t disagree with your advice that Red should wait until she is in love (though I wouldn’t go so far as to say a future husband – she is unlikely to marry for another eight years).

        P in V sex is magical when a woman is in love. When she is not, it is anything but magical or memorable.

        Most women I know would rather forget their first time, it was not all that special. *Shrugs* My first time with my husband was very memorable, but with my college bf? Not really.

      • deti says:

        “Most women I know would rather forget their first time, it was not all that special. *Shrugs* My first time with my husband was very memorable, but with my college bf? Not really.”

        Susan, with all due respect, this isn’t the kind of initial sexual experience Red should be encouraged to emulate.

      • Susan Walsh says:

        @Deti

        I agree completely. That’s why I recommended she has sex when she falls for someone. Sex is magical only when a woman is in love, and when that love is requited. It may be pleasurable otherwise, but not the memory of a lifetime.

  29. aneroidocean says:

    Red –

    The beauty of your virginity, is that it’s yours. What Danny says about doing it with someone you’re friends with is good. It’s good in the sense that you should definitely lose your virginity with someone you’re very comfortable with and in a comfortable setting. However, you also should lose it to someone that REALLY turns you on. I lost my virginity to my then-girlfriend thinking that she turned me on a lot. It turned out that she didn’t as much. Don’t get me wrong, I had a good time, but I realized later looking back on it, that she didn’t really push my buttons like other girls have. Once I got out of that relationship and had the opportunity to have sex with other girls, I realized what I’d been missing. When a couple can turn each other on intensely just with words and a deep kiss, then you know that they’re going to have passionate sex. Find a guy who does that for you and that you do that for. Find the guy that wants to make you cum almost as much as he wants to himself.

    People should have sex before marriage and before choosing to have kids with someone. Healthy and passionate physical intimacy is a large part of most any successful relationship.

  30. aneroidocean says:

    The idea that a woman who is not a virgin can’t bond with her husband/SO is silly. As long as you hold your own physical intimacy in high regard and treat it as such, you will have no problem bonding with a future husband/SO as your connection will be much deeper than a P in a V.

    Out of all the posters, I’m super surprised to be agreeing with Susan Walsh most of all.

    Wow!

  31. Phoenix says:

    Lady Red,
    Do or Do Not. There is no try.

    COOKIE TIME!!!! CIAO.


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